Learning brass construction with silver solder

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:55 am

I was playing around today, trying to figure how to make a new front axle for a 1/32 Bugatti type 59 I am rebuilding from an e bay glue bomb.

This is a similar version of the T Series of Bugatti racers

Was reading and watching videos about soldering (and brazing) and bought some silver solder today and gave it a whirl

Plastic vs brass axle

Test fit between the wheel...not too bad

If anyone has any soldering tips fire away, I am all ears

Tajfl · Post by **Tajfl** » Sun May 03, 2015 11:02 am

My advice is more on the safety area. You shuld try to avoid to breathe the smoke as much as possible. From my experience I can tell you that can be really painful. On a small projects like modeling should not be a big problem, but it is better if you take care of some kind of ventilation

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun May 03, 2015 4:40 pm

Great tip, healthy safe working always a good reminder
I have a big window right over my desk with a screened opening...had that open

I was thinking a fire extinguisher as well when there are open flames
Will look for better work base than the wood

chief5437 · Post by **chief5437** » Sun May 03, 2015 4:56 pm

Just been building a PE cockpit, so I thought I'd give the soldering a go. I've gotta say, I'm finding it easier than using ca. I don't end up with the parts sticking to me rather than the kit, lol!

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun May 03, 2015 5:58 pm

chief5437 wrote:Just been building a PE cockpit, so I thought I'd give the soldering a go. I've gotta say, I'm finding it easier than using ca. I don't end up with the parts sticking to me rather than the kit, lol!

Absolutely
I had CA glued the three tube bits for the axle with telescoping pins...worked ok, but huge joints and not too strong. That is when I went into the silver solder

DaveTheMinion · Post by **DaveTheMinion** » Sun May 03, 2015 6:28 pm

Looking superb mate, the only advice I could give is always clean the contact area, same as plumbing I suppose, a good clean joint is a secure joint, plus I use a glass fibre brush to clean the area before I solder, only ever done a little on trains so no expert, but my train didn't fall apart......

you can also get one of these bad boys

I know I want one....

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun May 03, 2015 8:29 pm

DaveTheMinion wrote:Looking superb mate, the only advice I could give is always clean the contact area, same as plumbing I suppose, a good clean joint is a secure joint, plus I use a glass fibre brush to clean the area before I solder, only ever done a little on trains so no expert, but my train didn't fall apart......

you can also get one of these bad boys I know I want one....

Whoa, that torch steps things up quickly
I was looking at the resistance soldering tools as well...but will stay low tech for now
Not sure how much of this I will be doing, but yes with silver solder, things are solid and ready to finish right after cooling....much better than the tin soldering that is for electrical bits with no stress joints

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon May 04, 2015 3:14 am

Some things I did different from electrical soldering
*Used silver solder that increases the silver content in the solder and the strength
*cut the solder into tiny little chips and apply them to the joint where the flux is
* Used thick flux that holds the solder bits around the joint location....so when the metal is heated, poof, the solder just wicks right into the joint
*used a butane torch to get the heat there fast, then off fast

The silver solder sets really hard as well, you can feel the difference from the weak tin stuff. You can finish a silver solder joint right away when cool enough to handle

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon May 04, 2015 4:38 pm

Continuing with the front axle fabrication:
Square brass stock to make two c-shaped linkages for steering and wheel rotation
I drilled the required six small holes before I split the stock into two

Some test assembly with pins

And a mock up with the frame and tire

Lots more to refine and file, but rolling and steering will work now
Next step is to solder a tube to each 'C' arm to accept a wheel

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue May 05, 2015 11:50 pm

Lots of fun soldering the brass rounds onto their supports for the tie rod

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:20 am

Twokidsnosleep wrote:Some things I did different from electrical soldering
*Used silver solder that increases the silver content in the solder and the strength
*cut the solder into tiny little chips and apply them to the joint where the flux is
* Used thick flux that holds the solder bits around the joint location....so when the metal is heated, poof, the solder just wicks right into the joint
*used a butane torch to get the heat there fast, then off fast

The silver solder sets really hard as well, you can feel the difference from the weak tin stuff. You can finish a silver solder joint right away when cool enough to handle

the higher the silver content the lower the heat required........go to a trade plumbing supplier

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:50 pm

the higher the silver content the lower the heat required........go to a trade plumbing supplier[/quote]

Hmmm, that sounds weird to me

Though more silver content means more heat

I found a good resource is researching the jewelry trade as they have many vids and products. Seen a high, medium and low temp silver solders. This allows you to have multiple joints with different temp solders so that you don't melt the step you just finished when you add something else, just have to plan ahead.

It is a lot more complex and technique sensitive than I thought....been having trouble soldering some simple tubes for my son's windmill. Darn solider would not flow, just forms into little balls and falls off. Likely surface contamination, flux issue or not heating metal properly.

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Thu May 14, 2015 12:56 am

[
It is a lot more complex and technique sensitive than I thought....been having trouble soldering some simple tubes for my son's windmill. Darn solider would not flow, just forms into little balls and falls off. Likely surface contamination, flux issue or not heating metal properly.[/quote]

I do a lot of copper and when that happens.Number one reason is pipe not hot enough for solder to flow. second is pipe is dirty
sand the tubes a little assuming the tubs aren't aluminum.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Thu May 14, 2015 2:15 am

I would say i did both, Digger
I manhandled the pipe and hit the solder before the metal with the flame
Just gotta walk away sometimes and regroup

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Thu May 14, 2015 10:52 am

Twokidsnosleep wrote:the higher the silver content the lower the heat required........go to a trade plumbing supplier

Hmmm, that sounds weird to me

Though more silver content means more heat

I found a good resource is researching the jewelry trade as they have many vids and products. Seen a high, medium and low temp silver solders. This allows you to have multiple joints with different temp solders so that you don't melt the step you just finished when you add something else, just have to plan ahead.

It is a lot more complex and technique sensitive than I thought....been having trouble soldering some simple tubes for my son's windmill. Darn solider would not flow, just forms into little balls and falls off. Likely surface contamination, flux issue or not heating metal properly.[/quote]

Yes you are right....higher silver content the higher the melting point....it does flow better though.

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Thu May 14, 2015 10:53 am

Twokidsnosleep wrote:I would say i did both, Digger
I manhandled the pipe and hit the solder before the metal with the flame
Just gotta walk away sometimes and regroup

seems strange ...what are the tubes made of ?

I always heat the target first before introducing the solder. if the metal is hot enough it should melt and solder almost straight away.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Thu May 14, 2015 3:56 pm

The tubes are finer diameter brass
Stupidly I sent the flame after my solder chips in the flux rather than heating the metal first, boiling the flux and then the solder melts and flows in a millisecond
I watched myself do it wrong twice and then heat the hell out of everything....just stopped shy of a glowing pile of goo
Hence stop, regroup and try another day. Not sure what I was thinking

Because the tubes are small diameter and it is delicate work, I like having the solder chips in the flux and then I have a free hand for holding
But you are right..heat the target metal first

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Fri May 15, 2015 1:02 am

One thing I have found is if you place target on a lump of thickish steel and pre heat it a little ( have to be careful...self harm) working time is extended a little, any additional heat applied is small when making adjustments and you can bounce the flame off it so as to not melt the delicate tubing.
ALSO you can make use of the different melting points of the solder(different ag content) as you make progressive joints on the one piece....jewelers do that a lot.

Of course depends on equipment available to you as well

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri May 15, 2015 1:15 am

Cool, I appreciate the expert input

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:43 am

This was my "Friday after a stressful workday before dinner is ready blowing off steam" project
Formed a piece of brass to create the cowling shape for the front of the Bugatti's cockpit. See brass section vs the blue body
Then silver soldered brass cowling to a flat sheet of brass to create a firewall.
I failed miserably at this a couple weeks ago, so took another run at it

Flux applied with a syringe so it is more accurate

This is the cowling sitting on the flat piece held in place by magnets and a heavy bending tool...so nothing's moving
Torch flame goes in that front opening where flux and solder await along the perfect joint formed by this jig

Cowling and firewall semi polished and shaped

I don't know if I am making a whole brass Bugatti or not yet....just practicing soldering with the purpose of making parts for something at this point that may or may not later be assembled together to form a sort of carish vehicle looking object somewhat resembling a T59 Bugatti

That is practice with a purpose rather than random shapes just soldered together

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:56 am

looks very professional soldering an jointing

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:14 am

Thanks Mate, that is a very kind thing to say

I am still a complete spaz at it though, but getting better bit by bit
Lots of thought has to go into planning joints out, drilling holes first and then a good jig to hold everything together

You made the great suggestion for a metal work surface and that steel works well....and acts as a heat sink too
I have a ceramic tile that I will use under all my soldering efforts from now on

I really appreciate your help, thank you

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:45 am

No problems.
One more... be care putting open flame for extened periods in one spot. The glaze may ( happens rarely) fly off the tile and in your eye.

Good jig you made up for holding the bits. the Magnets work well.....very adjustable.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:07 pm

Ahh ok, I won't be hitting the tile with any flame, but never hurts to be warned
The large tile I have will be used as the base below my little metal work surface ....just so I don't burn the desk and modelling mat with heat transfer through the metal work surface.
BUT I will be careful with that

rubegoldberg · Post by **rubegoldberg** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:39 pm

sweet!

scott going all og. love it.

i'm curious though… do they not make fluxcore solder for silver soldering? that would be a lot easier than manually applying a paste flux. i think you already know this, but in any form of gas welding, braising, or soldering the key is to heat the base metal first. ideally the base metal will melt the filler for you.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:18 pm

rubegoldberg wrote:sweet!

scott going all og. love it.

i'm curious though… do they not make fluxcore solder for silver soldering? that would be a lot easier than manually applying a paste flux. i think you already know this, but in any form of gas welding, braising, or soldering the key is to heat the base metal first. ideally the base metal will melt the filler for you.

Og.??? No comprendo muchacho
Yes you are right they make flux core solder
Your parts have to fit perfectly, no gaps and the flame/heat will displace loose parts. the flux is a paste, so holds the solder right where i want it

My problems are control, placement and stability
To control the solder, precision flux lets me have solder just where I want it and it etches the brass and solder only stick to this area, not that hard to apply flux especially with small parts.
By placing small chips of solder into the flux I minimize flash and get it right where I want it, especially in complex and small shapes. I apply it from the roll as you described above
Using jigs, magnets, clamps etc stabilize the work piece and frees up my hands to hold something still for support
I am still learning and there is a long curve to master it

rubegoldberg · Post by **rubegoldberg** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:36 am

og = ORIGINAL GANGSTA!

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:00 am

I am so white-bread, sorry

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:23 pm

Fooling around with bending more body parts. Finger bending the hood....made a paper form and then cut brass with shears. Lots more refinement to go for a good fit. That is my 'new' tile base to work on
Nothing is soldered in place, just dry fit testing to try and get gaps closed...it isn't easy to do that!!!

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:29 am

Frame rails cut and laid out

Soldered front extensions

Soldered rear extensions

Tajfl · Post by **Tajfl** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:22 pm

Nice

From front axle, to maybe whole brass model

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:45 pm

Tajfl wrote:Nice
From front axle, to maybe whole brass model

Yes, I am a complete idiot

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:16 pm

Working off some plans now

More parts. Floor pan, oil cooler, a rear leaf spring and it's mounting rod

rubegoldberg · Post by **rubegoldberg** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:30 pm

dude, you're really going at this! super impressed!

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Hey thanks man, I appreciated the feedback...been quiet on my threads lately

This is a little sideline pet project and I am actually getting better at soldering, which is what this project is all about
The real issue is setting parts up squarely with tight joints and stable enough to solder..that is the time killer

Also lots of time researching parts and their design and trying to duplicate those. Blueprints are hard to find.
I am happy with the rear spring"s soldering, but not its appearance or function...so will make a few more
It is kinda cool to make your own parts

rubegoldberg · Post by **rubegoldberg** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:56 pm

a small version of machinists square blocks might help. nomsayin'?

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Absolutely...pricey, but absolutely. Magnets work wonders as well

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:45 am

Some more body parts made today
Midline seam re-created with brass tube, made other rear spring and got the windscreen cowling soldered to its location.

The midline has been located properly, just looks off as the panel sides have uneven extra brass beyond their finish lines....ie the sides aren't the same length yet.

I want to get the frame rails soldered together, but have to figure out some complicated maneuvers with a jig to keep them square

Been contemplating louvre manufacture as well, will likely be plastic add one as cannot do it predictably by hand

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:34 am

going well

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:35 pm

digger303 wrote:going well

Thanks mate
Slow, but ok.
Haven't had a major soldering disaster recently and added that wind cowling to the cockpit area that was giving me fits!

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:32 pm

you have more courage than I to attempt that little project.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:31 am

My little brass pet project (and all the others) is all packed up and tucked away safe for an upcoming move
Hope to get back to it in a few weeks

NoelSmith · Post by **NoelSmith** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm

Very Impressive Model Engineering in such a small scale.
Where did you source the radially spoked PE wheels?

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:31 pm

NoelSmith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm Very Impressive Model Engineering in such a small scale.
Where did you source the radially spoked PE wheels?

My god I haven't thought about this in ages
Not sure where those wheels were from will have to look that up on my old ipad at home
The project died as I could not figure out how to do the vent louvres for the engine cowl symmetrical and perfect
Hmm maybe some 3D printed inserts

MrBowcat · Post by **MrBowcat** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:23 pm

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:21 pm

MrBowcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:23 pm

hey wasn't me
2014/15 is when I started posting in ISM

ForeverPlasticKits · Post by **ForeverPlasticKits** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:53 pm

Trying to recreate an axle you rebuild the full model ... THIS HUGE AND AWESOME, i love this post!

digger303 · Post by **digger303** » Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:55 pm

Twokidsnosleep wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:31 pm
NoelSmith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:10 pm Very Impressive Model Engineering in such a small scale.
Where did you source the radially spoked PE wheels?
My god I haven't thought about this in ages
Not sure where those wheels were from will have to look that up on my old ipad at home
The project died as I could not figure out how to do the vent louvres for the engine cowl symmetrical and perfect
Hmm maybe some 3D printed inserts

A cnc machine or laser cutter to cut the slots and then a piece of metal slightly shorter in length to press the vent gently into shape.